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@Alyssa and @Anna

Lovely to be able to work with you two on the necropsy. 

@Fish G. Fishpepers

This death was not your fault. I will assure you of that.

@Buzzcargo and @GingerFish who seemed interested... 

My findings were that this fish suffered from obesity. I'm not sure of the levels when it concerns fish, but it was really BAD if you ask me. 

All her organs were covered in fat. Anna even found fat around her heart. Her swim bladder had so many fat deposits around it that it looked like another organ. She also had a thick layer of fat under her skin. This would have taken probably years to get this bad. 

The amount of blood within the fishes abdominal cavity and fins etc spelled an organ rupture. Her kidneys looked intact and so did her heart. The liver, kidneys, and heart should all be CLOSE to the same size. I couldn't readily identify her liver. 

Just not normal findings at all inside the fish. Way too much fluid, organs a mess. Anna did note that the small green organ we saw may have been her gall bladder. She may have been right. Both the liver and gall bladder seem to be kinda hooked together in fish from what I just saw, but the liver should be a LARGE organ. I didn't know fish had a gall bladder but they do! I didn't truly see her liver. 

We easily identified the heart and kidneys, but the liver was a tiny and diseased mess or had disintegrated into the bloody mess. I think the fish died of liver disease and subsequent liver rupture. Liver disease could have been caused by obesity or age or a combo of things. 

Her size meant almost certainly that she was kept in a large pond. She probably had plenty of space to swim and got adequate exercise. Her diet was probably the issue here. There was no saving her. Her liver had already begun to fail and couldn't do much with the medication she was being given. 

Anna got some video to review. Really hoping I can get a second look. Something was way not right with that fish. The more we study, the more we can learn what's normal or not and what symptoms match what illnesses which can help us learn how to best medicate. 

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Reading a bit, fish definitely do have a gallbladder. There's not a lot of research on its function in fish but it's presumed to be similar to mammals. So going by that, gallbladder and liver function are very closely linked in that they play important roles in digestion and have important ducts to drain into each other and into the main digestive tract. It's possible something was blocked, or infected, or malfunctioning in some other way, all very high risk with poor diet and obesity just like in humans. It might have been that no amount of home medication or treatment could have done anything, she might have needed human-level medical care like bloodwork or surgery which just isn't available for fish :/ 

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Yup. You're right about the gall bladder. I think that's most of that green organ we saw. The liver should be large and resemble a human liver. We saw no such organ. It was all just mush where the liver should have been. 

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In mammals the liver can shrink up like in cirrhosis and become dysfunctional. It provides clotting factors for the blood and when the liver fails we see bleeding all over - sometimes bruising but sometimes bleeding in the chest or abdomen. There is also a condition called hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver) but then the liver would be big and very pale but could also causing clotting problems and general illness. The liver is super important for producing all kinds of proteins.

Are you going to post pics?

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Guest Ash g

Help I think my fish has the septicemia I have her in a 2 gallon bucket and rotating when fresh bucket everyday and have given her the erythromycin and she seems to do it be doing a lot better but now she's not eating this is day 2 her nitrate and ammonia levels were very high the person at the fish store told me give the erythromycin and aquarium salt yesterday she eight about three peas and then in the evening I gave her some fish food but she seems to have not eaten any of it when I changed her to the fresh tank today I'm wondering what food I should put in their peas or fish breaks she wasn't gossiping when I had first found her she was laying on her side at the top of the tank I thought you was dead and after I administer the medicine yesterday she is finally right side up and can swim around in the bowl but she's not eating I don't know what to do

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Guest Ash g

The microphone doesn't hear me correctly .... She wasn't gulping maybe once every 45 sec. when I found her floating at the top of the tank shes better but she won't eat 

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13 hours ago, Guest Ash g said:

Help I think my fish has the septicemia I have her in a 2 gallon bucket and rotating when fresh bucket everyday and have given her the erythromycin and she seems to do it be doing a lot better but now she's not eating this is day 2 her nitrate and ammonia levels were very high the person at the fish store told me give the erythromycin and aquarium salt yesterday she eight about three peas and then in the evening I gave her some fish food but she seems to have not eaten any of it when I changed her to the fresh tank today I'm wondering what food I should put in their peas or fish breaks she wasn't gossiping when I had first found her she was laying on her side at the top of the tank I thought you was dead and after I administer the medicine yesterday she is finally right side up and can swim around in the bowl but she's not eating I don't know what to do

Ash, would you please start a new topic on this issue - I think folks will see and find it quicker.

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Guest Kanaplex help!!

I have a koi that I believe has severe septicemia. He is pineconing, red sores, tail rot, bleeding in his scales, and it basically being eaten away as I see nothing but red around his anus. I do not have a suit oval quarantine tank with winter approaching, so I was wondering if I can treat him in my large pond with my other fish. A few others are showing signs but not as bad. But most of my fish are healthy as of now. Will the kanaplex treatment kill or harm my healthy fish? Please this is urgent. 

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8 hours ago, Guest Kanaplex help!! said:

I have a koi that I believe has severe septicemia. He is pineconing, red sores, tail rot, bleeding in his scales, and it basically being eaten away as I see nothing but red around his anus. I do not have a suit oval quarantine tank with winter approaching, so I was wondering if I can treat him in my large pond with my other fish. A few others are showing signs but not as bad. But most of my fish are healthy as of now. Will the kanaplex treatment kill or harm my healthy fish? Please this is urgent. 

We never ever treat healthy fish. This is a terrible idea and can cause much harm. In addition, Kanaplex is not likely to help here. On top of that, it is not truly meant for pond use and you would need a ton for a Koi pond. On top of THAT, it really isn't useful for Koi. This site is for goldfish. May I refer you to koiphen.com for health issues concerning your Koi. 

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Guest Kanaplex help!!

Thank you for your quick response. I thought kanaplex was for all fish. It doesn’t say it’s not for koi use. If you believe kanaplex won’t help, what do you think will? I also have heard that yes it may stress my healthy fish but using the proper dosage will not extremely harm them. I heard that they would be okay. What would this medication do to them that is so harmful? Thank you!

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14 hours ago, Guest Kanaplex help!! said:

Thank you for your quick response. I thought kanaplex was for all fish. It doesn’t say it’s not for koi use. If you believe kanaplex won’t help, what do you think will? I also have heard that yes it may stress my healthy fish but using the proper dosage will not extremely harm them. I heard that they would be okay. What would this medication do to them that is so harmful? Thank you!

Kanaplex is for aquarium use. That's why it comes in tiny tubes. It isn't meant to be dosed in ponds. Koi are different from most aquarium fish. They aren't resilient and they usually need much stronger medication when they get sick. Their environment is usually too big to dose most medications anyway and normally the individual fish is treated instead. 

Medicating the healthy fish along with the sick ones will cause the healthy ones to develop resistance to the bacteria the sick ones have. Then your chances of a widespread issue go WAY up and your fish can lose their immunity. Kanaplex is a harsh medication that is bad for their kidneys as well. It really is only meant for last resort use. That is why it claims to be for dropsy. Dropsy means death so last resorts are permitted. Medicating the healthy ones give them all the side effects for no reason. Again, you should never ever do this. You need quarantine tanks to remove the sick ones. 

And where did you "hear" all this information? It is certainly nonsense if someone told you that its perfectly fine to medicate healthy fish. This is a terrible aquarium practice and should never be done. 

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Guest Kanaplex help!!

i got my information from the Seachem technical support, which makes the kanaplex. They said adding the meds to the whole pond will certainly stress my healthy fish, but it will not kill them. I explained that I can not take out the sick ones because winter is approaching and the water will be too cold. So they said it would be fine to medicate the entire pond.  My severely ill fish is developing dropsy and I don’t have the option to quarantine him.  

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3 hours ago, Guest Kanaplex help!! said:

i got my information from the Seachem technical support, which makes the kanaplex. They said adding the meds to the whole pond will certainly stress my healthy fish, but it will not kill them. I explained that I can not take out the sick ones because winter is approaching and the water will be too cold. So they said it would be fine to medicate the entire pond.  My severely ill fish is developing dropsy and I don’t have the option to quarantine him.  

I saw you post on Koiphen. They also advised against treating the entire pond. They also told you that Kanaplex won't help the fish. Seachem makes medicine for aquariums. They don't know much about Koi or pond environments. Their technical supports interests are selling their products, they are not interested in your Koi. Take their advice with salt. 

Your severely ill fish is likely to die. It was caught too late and you don't have the ideal medications of environment to help him. What you don't want to do here is lose the rest of them. Treating the entire pond will cause every fish in there who doesn't have the bacteria to lose resistance to it. This can result in a catastrophy. 

With that said, medicate the entire pond at your own risk. 

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Guest Kanaplex help!!

I put my big white koi that was looking really bad back in the pond with the rest of the fish to stress him out less. Today I looked at the pond and he was swimming and I put in food and he ate the food. I don’t know if he’s getting better on his own now. What do you think? Should I just let the cycle take it’s course? My other fish seem to be all right. As of now. My other big fish still has ripped fins but it still acting normal. Do you think it will resolve on its own?

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1 hour ago, Guest Kanaplex help!! said:

I put my big white koi that was looking really bad back in the pond with the rest of the fish to stress him out less. Today I looked at the pond and he was swimming and I put in food and he ate the food. I don’t know if he’s getting better on his own now. What do you think? Should I just let the cycle take it’s course? My other fish seem to be all right. As of now. My other big fish still has ripped fins but it still acting normal. Do you think it will resolve on its own?

Where did you have the sick fish before you put him back in the pond?  I was thinking you said you didn't have a quarantine tank?  I have lost a couple fish in my time as a goldfish owner and both times my fish ate up until the day before they died so I'm not sure that is a sure fire way of telling a fish is ok.  Ripped fins will take awhile to heal.  Sorry I can't be of more help.

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Guest Kanaplex help!!

I had him in a kiddie pool soaking in bifuran but I know I can’t leave him in there because the water was getting so cold. I just put in back in the pond yesterday. He seems to be swimming around a lot more than when he was in the pond before. Also, his tail is becoming more clear and his fins are less pink. Does this mean regrowth?

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Guest Kanaplex help!!

If so, will he heal himself the rest of the way? I think the stress coat I added yesterday may be helping his damaged fins. I also did a huge water change yesterday and added pond salt today with more stress coat. 

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37 minutes ago, Guest Kanaplex help!! said:

If so, will he heal himself the rest of the way? I think the stress coat I added yesterday may be helping his damaged fins. I also did a huge water change yesterday and added pond salt today with more stress coat. 

In a normal fin tail rot or injury as long as the rot doesn't go completely to the body of the fish, the fish can regrow the fin.  My comet used to tear his tail quite a bit.  Never was sure how he did it but I assume it was on the filter intake or something because I didn't have any decoration in his tank and he was in the tank alone so I know it wasn't from another fish.  

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