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Ian

Dog peeing in the kitchen

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Folks, looking for any suggestions - my dog has started to pee in the kitchen, always in the same spot.

I don't just blame the mutt, but I suspect that he is not being put outside as often as he needs to be - maybe he is getting old? Now i understand that they are unlikely to pee in the room they are in, but if they can wander elsewhere "they'll never know it was me?" I read, is their thinking?

If we have to be gone for a while, I would leave him outside - he has a kennel if he gets cold, but he is so excited to see us when we get home, and whimpery, that I do feel sorry for him, but needs must - wife is on Chemo for her brain, and a 15 minute treatment takes all bloody day, plus 3 hours travelling there and back!

That is only a couple, 3 times a month, but I cannot leave him inside when I go to work - she (the wife) may not get out of bed until 2 or 3 in the afternoon these days, which is too long for him I guess.

He is a big enough dog to be outside - I hope without getting too cold, he is a Springer Spaniel we think. I realise that the situation is not ideal, but we did not choose the dog, he just arrived.

The wooden floor can be mopped, but it is showing damage from the wetness slightly. I read that "rubbing their nose in it" is not worthwhile, as they then come to understand that pee, or worse, on the floor is bad, but by the time they are admonished, they wonder "how did that get there?"

Maybe not. I don't want to hit him, or otherwise punish him, and I always praise him for being a good boy outside. I understand that keeping him in the room where the pee will show is one answer, but I have 2 children, who never close a door, ever.

Is there any use to pepper dust to keep them away from an area, or should I somehow punish him? I speak sternly to him in my pissed off voice - the ears may go back, and the head down, but still he is wagging his tail.

I have no idea of this dog's history, so I don't know if he was a house trained dog, or kept outside in a kennel or a pen.

Any suggestions??

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Yup he's probably peeing because he's not being let out enough. If this can't be fixed, you'll have to find some way to keep him outside. If he's peeing because of that, it does no good to punish him. Sudden behaviors always warrant a vet visit first though. Excess peeing may be a UTI or prostate or other issue. 

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Telling him off or punishing him will do no good and may even make things worse.  Dog's brains don't work like ours and he won't understand why you are upset with him, which may make him stressed or even scared to toilet in front of you.  When we first got our rescue dog, Harley, he used to poop in the house.  You could spend hours outside with him but the second you got indoors and turned your back he would go... he was frightened of going in front of people.  He'd obviously been told off for it in the past, but instead of understanding 'pooping in the house is bad', he understood 'pooping is bad', so he tried to hide whenever he needed to go.  Took us a while to re-train him!

It does sound like he just needs to go out more often, and unfortunately the more he ends up having to wee indoors, the more he is likely to do it again.  Definitely worth getting him checked out by the vet too as @myrasosweet suggested, just to rule out a medical reason.

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Eh growing up I house trained dogs the old fashioned way. Drag them to it, stick their face in it, yell at them, put them outside. Worked on the two dogs I did it with. Not ideal and definitely old fashioned, but definitely worked. 

Even with Nigredo, when he would pee and I would see him... I would yell at him NO! Which startled him out of finishing, and put him outside to finish. Then I told him good. Took him only a week or two to learn to not pee inside. He was never truly a house pooper.

With puppy food aggression, we were also old school. Puppy growls over food, puppy gets scruffed and submitted or smacked in the face and food taken... Puppy quickly learned never to do these things. Never had a problem. Again realize its old school and these days is considered cruel... But it did work. 

Oreo (a cat) was food aggressive due to starving, I just constantly hand fed him and he soon learned the food giver wasn't the food taker awayer... His food aggression is almost totally gone. EVERY now and then he will growl over a very tasty morsel but it's very rare. 

With crate training, puppies were left to yell and cry until they stopped. They were left with their own pee and anything else. ONLY when they were quiet were they let out. Worked. After a while puppy shut up in crate. And soon enough puppy didn't need crate. 

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Harley is proof that the old fashioned way doesn't work for every dog!  He is a super-confident little dog 99% of the time, but he turns into a wreck when people shout.

For me, there is no reason to shout or smack when kindness and reward based training works better, and honestly I'd never be able to bring myself to treat my dogs like that.

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I left a UK based dog forum just because they were all "positive" and they said that there's never a case where negative reinforcement works. That isn't true and they can't tell me that as I've seen it all my life.

Take a walk around my neighborhood and you'll see dogs on chains and choke chains and prongs being snatched when people walk them etc. It's different. I don't treat MY dog like that BUT it took me a long time to shake what I grew up believing was normal and okay. Even still I don't believe that lightly punishing a dog is cruel. You should see how people treat their kids here! Right and wrong is not black and white. 

I'm not for harming dogs and I wouldn't smack a dog unless defending myself but I absolutely have NO aversion to shouting at them and making eye contact that says I'M NOT PLAYING. Raising your voice really isn't a big deal to me. 

My dog Nigredo is extremely well adjusted and well behaved and even did therapy and I definitely will shout at him when I feel he's being stubborn. He definitely understands and he corrects the behavior instantly. It is extremely rare that I have to say it twice. 

I refuse to reward poor behavior and honestly IMO some of the positive reinforcement training I would never bother with. Better is subjective. Nigredo is pretty well behaved. He does bark at stupid things like sticks hitting the house now and then... but telling him to SHUT UP works perfectly. I suppose it depends on how ruthless you are.

We aren't speaking of hurting the dog, we speak of getting the dog to do what is safe and what is acceptable. This is something me and positive reinforcement only people will never agree on. I've realized that. 

Punishing this dog I will say is useless either way. He may have a health issue or be FORCED to pee inside. 

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I'm not saying that it doesn't work, just that I don't believe it's worth it.  You might be lucky and have a rock solid dog who accepts punishment and isn't badly affected by it... or you may end up with a dog that stops bothering with a growl and jumps straight to a bite, or a dog that becomes a nervous wreck, or a dog that becomes aggressive, or a dog that just shuts down.  You generally don't risk any of that with reward based training.  I'd much rather teach my dog what I want it to do than punish it for 'bad' behaviour.  That's not to say that I never ever shout at them... no one is perfect!  But I prefer not to rely on it.

It's funny that you left a UK dog forum... I left a mostly US dog facebook group because some of the discussions and opinions on things like training, prong collars, shock collars, ear cropping etc, made me feel physically sick.  

But none of this is relevant to the thread so I'll stop now! 

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Last night apparently there was more than a pee, and apparently it was within an hour of him being let outside, but i guess I always go out with him and praise him. He always looks at me when doing the toilet, and I always praise him. The kids just let him out. Would making them go out with him help? That is the positive, and like Myra, I would definitely be Barking at him if i caught him in the act indoors, but I don't know how to explain bad to him, without rubbing his nose in it, with or without a slap.

I also feel bad, as i don't know if he was a house dog before he arrived with us, maybe he could have taken a dump wherever he wanted to before - such in a pound/run or large outdoor area? Those things I do not know.

Is it true that a dog is unlikely to toilet in the room in which they are kept - ie They will find me and this present, and know it was me? Would limiting his roaming ability when I am not there make a difference? I have never trained a dog/ been trained for a dog, and honestly do not have the time at the moment to learn to - that will seem wrong to some, but please remember that this is a dog who arrived at my house -a stray we adopted. And he is grey in the muzzle, so not young. I had him neutered to protect his prostate as the vet recommended.

If he is crapping too, do I still need to get him checked for a UTI/prostate problem, or is this therefore more likely behavioural or poor care on the kids part?

The Big Bang last night had Sheldon complaining that at the start of Ghostbusters, Bill Murray was calling something negative reinforcement, when it should have been positive penalisation - electric shocking someone who got a card wrong- the good looking lass got no shocks and most cards wrong, the guy got a shock every time, even though he got most cards correct.

I am now confused about what "negative reinforcement" actually is! Damn that big bang -  without it none of us would have a care?

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When my husband & I had to work long hours & had a house dog, we put a door door in the bottom of our back door, with a small dog run (about 8'x8') off of it so that Pip ( med. size terrier) could go out & potty when we weren't home. In my experience with an older dog, sometimes they accidentally poop when getting up if they have arthritis & have to really work to stand up.

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